Fat, so?

So, here's a real controversy for once since most of my topics have been pretty tame lately...

I don't like fat people.

Ok, ok. Hold on before you hit the "NEXT" button on your browser!

When I say I don't like fat people I'm really saying, "I don't like myself as a fat person."

I don't know which school of psychiatry it is that says "what you dislike most in other people is what you dislike most about yourself but are unable to articulate", but that's really what this is.

Don't get me wrong! I have friends who are fat! (Gah! That's kinda like the, "I have nothing against the gays! I have friends who are gay!... even though I just voted for this legislation to strip them of their equal rights" bullshit that politicians pull, isn't it!?) God, does this make me like self-loathing gay republicans who activate against their own interests? I don't know.

When I say that I don't like fat people I am also talking about a judgmental part of myself that I really dislike as well. Yesterday Jedi and I went to see his sister's high school play and one thing I was struck by was how FAT so many of those kids are! Like, shockingly fat! And this one poor girl, her costume didn't fit her at all, and every time she moved around rolls of belly fat were exposed. And I'm ashamed to say that my initial reaction was "Ugh! How gross!" not "Oh, that poor girl! She needs a better fitting costume!"

Don't get me wrong. I AM very ashamed of this reaction. Most especially because I know how it feels. It's the reaction I got MY ENTIRE LIFE from my mom, and my siblings, and the rest of my family (See posts below for more Food and Self-Loathing fun!)

I'm working with my therapist to keep weight and worth from being inextricably linked, but it's hard-- that's the programming I was indoctrinated with.

I'm feeling particularly crummy about myself right now because I have gained weight recently... (So much so that I'll make a cringe-worthy confession-- I took a home pregnancy test to see if that wasn't the reason (Since I'm on BC that skips periods I'm now terrified of ending up on one of those "I didn't know I was pregnant!" shows). And as horrible as it would have been for the results to be positive a small part of me was thinking, "Well, at least if I'm pregnant that means that I'm not just-- ew!-- FAT, yanno!" But no. The results were (thankfully) negative. So, I'm not having a BABY, baby... I'm just, yanno, having... a FOOD baby.) BTW-- Jedi and I were going to go join the gym today, but we got distracted by the ice cream shop on the way there...

I do blame Jedi for some of my recent weight gain. With him in the house I've been buying a lot of things he likes, things that I don't normally get. Chips, cheetos, little debbie cakes, peanut butter and Jelly, pre-packaged over-processed crap-ola type stuff. (Not that he should be eating it either, I suppose) This is because he's "Good" and packs his lunches in the morning, and puts a couple of those treats in there for his lunches. Well, I go to the cafeteria at work most of the time, but I still eat all the crap when I get home too. So, I know this is my "fault" (Even though my therapist doesn't like for me to talk about "fault" where food is concerned. Food is neutral-- it is neither the "good" nor the "bad" that we associate with it, and then associate with OURSELVES when we ingest it. Food is either "Nutritious" or "Not Nutritious." But I sort of digress)...

Part of it is also that Jedi not only doesn't have a problem with my eating, he encourages it. Ok, ok... so, Jedi kind of has a "thing" for chubby girls. I guess that works out well for me, but at the same time I know it's part of the reason that I get complacent when he says, "Wanna get ice cream?" when we've already had ice cream that day.

He really hates it when I call myself fat. It upsets him actually. And while he always says "You're not fat!" ... well, I am. Trust me, dear readers, I am not "Rubenesque" or "Voluptuous" or any other euphemistic phrases that annoy the crap out of me. I say this because I don't want you to think that I'm some 140lb chick who thinks she should lose 20lbs.

(Side note: As I sit here writing this Jedi has just asked, "Do you want me to make you anything to eat?" *sigh* It's lovely that he does so, and it makes me feel loved... but at the same time it does lead me to eat more than I should. Because who in their right mind is going to turn down a sandwich? Yum.)

Part of this issue for me is that my mother always said that I'd never find anyone who would want to be with me if I was fat. Well. Somehow I did. I don't know what to make of that, but I did. So doesn't that mean I should be feeling better about myself? And yet, somehow I'm not.

I know that a big part of the answer is that I need to be kinder to others as a way of being kinder to myself. I know the issues other overweight people struggle with. I KNOW it's not as "easy" as "Just Put the Donut Down!" (And if any trolls say some variation of that in the comments, do trust that you'll be deleted ASAP.) If there was a simple solution, don't you think Oprah would have found it by now? Don't you think some marketer would have packaged and bottled it? I've tried it all-- WW, OA, Atkins, WeighDownWorkshop, Mindful Eating, Anorexia, Bulimia, exercising, etc, etc, etc. It all "worked" to some extent or another... but the problem is ME... not the eating (or not eating) or the food. If it was as easy as taking the weight off that would be one thing. I could get my jaw wired. But even people who have had their stomachs stapled (which is why I've not decided to do this) find ways around that and often regain the weight (or find other addictions.)

I guess most of what I'm saying is not THAT controversial. I mean, I'm a self-hating fat person! What could be more passe than that? But I spend a lot of time thinking about this because #1) I obviously still don't have a good handle on it, and #2) I really don't want to pass this on to any future kids, and #3) it really annoys me when people (thin people, in my experience) DON'T GET IT!

As for #3) I've found that most of those people think this is a matter of willpower... even though studies have shown junk food is as addictive as cocaine. For those people for whom food is not an issue-- well, Great for them! I liken it to people who don't get addicted to cigarettes. Some people aren't predisposed to addiction-- and those that are can avoid cigarettes... but I can't avoid food. Can I avoid just Ice cream? Or Bread? Or XYZ? Sure... for a little while. But in no other addiction are you constantly confronted with the object of your addiction-- ENCOURAGED even to partake... and then vilified when the effects (fattening!) become visible.

Please believe me when I say that being anorexic was easier than trying to eat mindfully. When you're not eating at all you're not confronted with choices. When you don't have to make choices it becomes a lot easier to be in control. With choices every step is a potential misstep. And every misstep is the potential 3-day binge.

I was doing well with my eating up until Jedi moved in. I ate when I was hungry, I didn't when I wasn't. It's not fair to blame him, but I eat more socially and I eat more junk when he's around. I wasn't thrilled with my weight but I had stabilized at size 18 for 2 years. I had accepted myself, come to appreciate myself and find that I was ok there.... Now I've crept to 22 and I'm scared I won't be able to halt the progression, or WORSE won't be able to reverse it. I DO NOT want to fall back into the self-destructive behaviors of the past... but I can't seem to find a healthy way of eating right now. (Who am I kidding, "Right Now." I don't know if I've EVER had a healthy way of eating.) What was working for me was deliberately NOT thinking about food, but with Jedi around offering me food that I mindlessly eat, this is not a good solution.

So what to do? Besides be kinder to others and myself? I'm not sure.

An addition

to ControverSunday I thought you moms trying to get kids to eat something other than mac & cheese might enjoy.

Food, Glorious Food!

Today's ControverSunday Offerings!




I have food issues. I blame my mother. I'm hoping that someday, when I have a kid, she not only won't blame me for her food issues, she actually won't have any! (Wishful thinking, I know!)

Growing up, my mother put a huge emphasis on looks. I was taller than average and just plain bigger than average. It didn't help that all of my friends were smaller, petite, and delicate little things so that by comparison I was gargantuan. Looking back at pictures of myself I see that I was not fat-- I was very average sized-- but my friends were all arms and legs and twiggy like. This led to a LOT of self-loathing, especially when one considers that my mother was constantly putting me on a diet to get down to my impossible-to-achieve "ideal" weight.

My mother wasn't the only one-- my entire family would do things like taking cookies away from me, or not allowing me to eat between meals (even though my siblings were allowed free reign of the kitchen.) My dad once offered me $1000 to lose 50lbs in 4 months. In spite of eating practically nothing for those four months and working out 2-3 hours a day I only lost about 10lbs and gained a whole heap of self-loathing in the process.

My senior year of high-school I (accidentally) became anorexic. How could such a thing happen? Well, it had to do with my weird class schedule and the fact that the cafeteria wasn't open during any of my free hours. I only went to school from 7am-10:30am that year and then I spent the rest of the school day at a "high potential" program in the city. This meant that I would often go the entire day without eating anything until dinner and even that might only be a couple cookies and an apple.

I dropped 40lbs in 2 months and it was AWESOME. I suddenly became popular! Kids who had never wanted me in their "cool" group suddenly invited me to everything. I got the lead in the school play! Guys were telling me I was hot!...

Once I'd realized this was happening I decided to keep up the anorexia stuff a little longer. ONly, I found that was a lot harder than I thought it would be when I didn't have an insane schedule physically keeping me from eating. And so I turned to bulimia instead-- something I probably wouldn't have done had I not gotten so much societal approval because I lost a few pounds. I mean, *I* knew I hadn't changed inwardly, but somehow society found me SO much more acceptable and worthwhile when I was in a lower weight range. Shocker, I know.

Well, I fluctuated in college by quite a few pounds-- ranging from 170 (my low weight-- because I'm tall-ish, I actually look really good at this weight) to about 210, but mostly staying in the lower range. But I stayed in the lower range using a variety of unhealthy methods that I'll skim over here.

Then, I got out of college and couldn't find a job for a long time, and became stuck in a series of dead end jobs that caused me so uch stress I actually ended up in the hospital. During this time my weight shot up to 250lbs, which made me even MORE depressed, and which only made my family harp on me more.

In my family food=emotions. I'm sure this isn't too different from most families. So, with the usual cycle of good food vs. bad food, fad diets, body loathing, family & cultural pressure, feelings of worthlessness, binging/purging/more binging... I've had more than my fair share of food/body issues. (For me, food issues ARE body issues.)

Fortunately, about 3 years ago I started seeing a therapist. I am certainly not "cured" of my food issues...I still have bouts of binging... but it's MUCH MUCH MUCH less frequent than before. At the moment I actually have a massive amount of candy and ice cream in my house (2 of my favorite binge foods.) I just cleared out some stuff and I ended up throwing away a TON of Halloween/Christmas/Valentine's day candy. I also threw out about 2 cartons of ice cream that had been in the freezer so long they'd gotten that layer of frost on them. In the past this would NEVER have happened... (due in no small part to the fact that in my mother's estimation throwing away food is a sin.)

My weight is still much higher than I'd like it to be (though Jedi tells me about 300 times a day how hot he thinks I am, I still have a great deal of trouble believing it.) My weight no longer fluctuates the way that it did though and for all that I'm not denying myself any foods I find that I'm not gaining weight because I stop when I'm satisfied. Sometimes I'm satisfied with only a spoonful of ice-cream. In the past I wouldn't have been "satisfied" if I hadn't eaten the entire container.

What's the change? I think I got to the point where I realized my mother's issues are HER issues and I don't need to take them on. I also realized that I need to stop waiting for myself to be at a lower weight in order for me to start living my life. But the biggest thing is that I STOPPED CARING about food. What I eat or DON'T eat is no longer the center of my life.

Oh! The HOURS, DAYS, YEARS....!!! I spent worrying about what I should eat! What a WASTE! If only I could have that time and energy back, just think about what I might accomplish! And so I decided that I wasn't going to let food have power over my life. I was going to eat what I enjoy (in moderation) and fuck the rest. If people have an issue with me at my currently high--but not life-impeding--weight ... well, that says more about them than me.

I don't have a child yet, but I have thought long and hard about how to approach the "food issue" when I do.

I used to nanny for a family-- the mother of which is a writer who has actually written on food issues (and has been quoted extensively in the mommy-blogosphere this week on this very topic actually) and while I thought she was a little nutty in some respects (which is why I won't link to her blog at this point, but email me if you like and I'll point you in her direction.) I thought her approach to food was very sensible and I decided I would emulate it if/when I have children.

The rule at her house is this-- There is no food that is "off limits," -- but she makes sure that the CHOICES that are in the house are of the mostly-healthy variety. Additionally, food is never to be used as a reward or punishment.

How does this work in practice? Well... let's say that dinner is Turkey, carrots, brussel sprouts, rolls, and cupcakes. The children are NOT required to eat all their brussel sprouts or turkey or whatever in order to get the cupcake. They can eat as much or as little of everything that is for dinner. (However, they don't get to say-- "I want mac & cheese instead!") If all they want for dinner is the cupcake? Well, then, that's what they have for dinner. (She does, however, try to make it so that if dessert is a cupcake one day, the next day dessert is fruit or a yogurt... to balance it out.)

I said to my mother that this is what I would (hypothetically) do with my child as well, (I said this to her as she was force feeding my nephew a peanut butter & jelly sandwich --- which he "had" to finish before he could have his oreos... as though the PB&J is somehow vastly nutritionally superior. Ugh. I believe this only turns off a child's naturally self-regulating appetite and teaches them to eat past their fullness as well as teaching them that some foods are more desirable than others and more 'rewarding.' Bad, bad, bad all around! Yes, I'm judging!)

She responded by saying that this would NEVER work and that a child raised like that would be eating only chocolate and cupcakes. You can't give kids the choice! She said. WRONG, I believe.

And I've seen it in practice! This family I nannied for? All the kids were very normal healthy weights. I saw the kids on multiple occasions ask for an unhealthy treat only to lose interest in it a few moments later. I SWEAR to you that more than one time I had one of the kids ask for a donut... that kid would take two bites... and then ask for some carrots in the next breath.

The trouble with this method is how to enforce it when you're at someone else's house. My mother has already said she would force my kids to clean their plates before dessert (to which I replied, "Too bad you won't see your grandkids then!") But they will be at other people's houses at times and those people will have other rules. I don't think that's a MAJOR issue, but I do worry that those houses with other values will feed my kids Mt.Dew and Cheetos for dinner and then the moms will sit at the dinner table drinking slim-fast. Not a good message.

The other trouble with this is how to stop the ingrained script in my head (that sounds a lot like my mother's voice!) Even though I KNOW I want to use the above method at one point when I was babysitting my nieces I did the dreaded, "Do as I say or you'll go to bed with no supper!" speech! Eegads! Talk about using food as reward/punishment! How to stop that auto-reflex when I'm mad is something I really need to work on!

So, in conclusion, while I have no child-raising experience, I sure as hell have a lot of food issue/body issue experience, and I don't want my future child to go through that pain. This method seems to be the best one I've found to avoid replicating the issues my mother saddled me with.

Of course, that just means that my hypothetical future kid will end up with a whole host of OTHER issues... but that's a different post for a different day!

ControverSunday: Pre-Pregnancy Edition

So, I should be working on my thesis (still on page 1! Whoo hoo... Ahem) rather than on ControverSunday (Gah! How many more Sundays will I have to add that caveat?! Interweb friends! Keep me accountable! Make me work on my thesis!)But, well, since I'm not, I suppose I may as well write a little about this whole culture of pregnancy thing.

Actually, what I think is more interesting than that is the culture of PRE-pregnancy in this country. I mean, when you're pregnant, I think you kinda get sucked into the culture--yanno? Well, you're pregnant. It's not like you can really AVOID it... unless you go all crunchy-granola and live in a commune or something.

Part of the reason I find the whole pre-pregnancy culture so fascinating (which is all part of the Madonna-and-child pseudo-worship going on as well) is how little care the culture has when that baby-bump turns into an ACTUAL real-live BREATHING, Kicking, Screaming, Pooping, Boob-milk drinking, Daycare-needing baby. Before that it's all "Let us meddle in your business!" After the birth it's all, "You're on your own, suckers! You made a choice (nevermind that we try to eliminate your choices!), you better live with it!"

But I digress...

I think it's all part and parcel of the same disdain the culture in general has for women's autonomy. What do I mean? Well, how's this for a concrete example--

Young women are often discriminated against when seeking sterilization. Many doctors ask offensive questions ("What if you met a billionaire who wanted to have kids with you?"), state categorically that their patients are too young to consider the surgery, and generally act as though, as one woman who tried unsuccessfully to be sterilized at the age of 21 in the U.K. put it, "just because I was a woman, I'd reach a point where an urge to breed would overcome all rational thought." (Perhaps unsurprisingly, that woman's 25-year-old husband faced no such presumptions when he asked his doctor for a vasectomy. The procedure was quickly approved.)

(Or how aboutThis story?)

I had friends argue with me that women don't really know what they're doing when they opt for steralization, that they shouldn't be allowed to do it because it's permanent, they'll change their minds, they're too young... etc. To that I say... SO THE FUCK WHAT?

Maybe they will change their minds. Maybe they will regret it. Does that mean they shouldn't be allowed the option? We let people make stupid decisions all the time-- People get tattoos on their faces. People marry ax murderers who are in still in prison. People have 19 kids and counting. People have ONE kid and end up regretting it. But shouldn't they have the choice? But it seems to be only women who shouldn't have a choice where their reproductive options are concerned because...women don't know what they REALLY want or what's good for them. And women are fickle creatures who will change their minds anyway...

But society limiting women's choices is only one aspect of the whole "Pre-pregnancy" culture. Additionally are all the recommendations that women who plan or "MIGHT" become pregnant should avoid fish... should take folic acid... should eat organic vegetables... should avoid milk with artificial growth hormones...etc. Now, mind you, I think these are all good recommendations. The catch is, I think these are all good recommendations for EVERYONE-- but they are couched in terms of not what is best for the WOMAN, but what would be best for the fetus that she MIGHT someday carry. WTF? Why can't women be healthy for their own sake's as well?

There is also generally the assumption that ALL women will eventually have children. (And if they don't WTF is wrong with them?!) I don't care what laws or rules are in place-- if you don't think the thought is going through some employer's mind when s/he interviews a 25-35 childless woman that they're going to lose that woman to maternity leave at some point in the near future, and that that doesn't affect hiring decisions, I'd say you're crazy. Because, you know what? I've interviewed people, and it's gone through my mind. Yes, it's wrong, (but I can honestly say it didn't affect my decisions, since I hope to be going on maternity leave in the next 5 years or so myself...) but I have some friends who are ADAMANTLY "child-free" folks and they are my age. A potential employer would have no way of knowing which camp anyone falls in, but I'd be willing to bet they'd assume that hypothetical woman will be jumping on the mommy-train shortly.

So, this isn't a particularly well-thought out post, because it's midnight and I'm avoiding my thesis... I know are other examples of the pre-pregnancy culture that I'm not thinking of-- I'm sure y'all have some of your own. Feel free to post some in the comments!

I didn't start the fire... oh, wait, I kinda did.

Since I'm still on page ONE of my thesis draft (which is due tomorrow... all 120 pages of it. La dee dah...) I really feel like I shouldn't be participating in Perpetua's ControverSundays ... on the other hand, since I DID suggest the topic (yippee! No one ever takes my ideas!) I feel I should participate. (Additionally, we all know I'm not fooling anyone-- it's not as though NOT participating will somehow lead me to write 119 pages of a thesis before tomorrow.)

So...

OTHER PEOPLE'S CHILDREN
(or)
(Great Oafs from Little Monsters Grow)

**(I suppose I should preface this by saying that no, I do not have children. HOWEVER, I am the oldest of 5 and I am a babysitter/nanny/(former) sunday school teacher/grade school teacher extraordinaire.)**

When I suggested the topic of "Disciplining Other People's Children" in my mind I was thinking of very specific instances. I was really thinking only of either those times when a child has been entrusted into your care and/OR those times when you are the only adult in the vicinity.

Though often, when I'm in public, I will see parents who are disciplining their children in ways I disapprove of (Yelling, getting in the kid's face, yanking their arm, calling the kid names) or parents who refuse to discipline their little hellions as kids run like banshees in store aisles pulling everything off the shelves-- in those cases, I really won't do anything other than give the parent the stink-eye.

Would I step in if someone was beating their child? I'd like to think I would. Spanking? Mmmm Probably not. I know, it's a fine line and some people think it's the same thing... But I think it's one of those things that fall under the category of, "I know it when I see it." When does a spanking become a beating? I know it when I see it.

So, having established what I don't mean... what DO I mean? I'll illustrate with 2 specific points.... (Mostly because I still feel righteously indignant about them and I'm sure y'all on the interwebs will back me up on this!)

In the first instance I was 18 years old. My little brother was 5 and my little sister was 6. I had not "officially" been put in charge of my siblings-- my parents were out running errands-- but I was effectively the only grown up in the house. My sister Em was a little brat (still is. Only now she's a BIG brat.) and she and my brother Jay would fight frequently. In our living room we had an almost- wall-sized flat screen tv which sat on a stand.

Em and Jay started fighting and Em totally instigated it. Jay was standing in from of the tv and Em started throwing things at him. HEAVY things. Books, plastic toys, etc. I had images in my head of the tv shattering and/or falling on my brother. Em refused to listen to me when I told her to stop, she refused to listen when I told her to to go her room. She was throwing a tantrum and just generally having a FIT.

Having no other way to stop her I went behind her, wrapped my arms around her, and held her to prevent her from moving. Note: I didn't hold her wrists, or twist her arms behind her back or restrain her in an otherwise painful manner-- I just basically put her in a bear-hug/lock so that she was unable to move.

Guess who got in trouble for that particular incident? Oh yeah, that would have been ME. My dad was very angry that I had "dared lay a hand" on my sister. (Never mind that my dad is of the "spare the rod, spoil the child" philosophy and he never had any qualms administering spankings.)

I was SO angry after that. I pointed out to him that I most certainly would have been blamed if something dangerous had happened and I hadn't stepped in to solve it. I also told him that, Fine, if he didn't want me disciplining his kids, I wasn't going to allow myself to be put in a situation where I was the only adult with them. They could bring them along when they went on errands, or I would leave the house.

And I stuck to that. No more free babysitter! (Sucks for them!)

But GRRR!~ I am still angry about that 10 years later!

The other incident is one in which I was explicitly put in charge of a child, I tried to impose discipline, and I wasn't backed up.

As I mentioned I babysit/nanny quite a bit in between my job/studies etc to make extra money. One particular family I sit for was nice in many ways and it was a good employment situation except for the fact that their kid was a SPOILED BRAT.

I had never really understood that old saying before (shoot-- I can't think of it!) -- the one about the parents being responsible for ruining a child. Yes, I could understand how it happened, but I had never actually witnessed it before.

Katie is an 11 year old with down syndrome. (OOo0! I know, you're all thinking about what a meanie I am for telling tales about what a brat she is. Just hold on.) The problem is not that she has down syndrome it's the way her parents (particularly her sMother!) react to the fact that she has down syndrome.

I actually really like Katie's mom. She's a sweet, friendly woman... but where her daughter is concerned she is a PUSHOVER! I think Katie's parents feel so guilty about Katie's disability that they've inadvertently made it worse.

Katie is actually a very smart and intuitive girl... and VERY manipulative. She's manipulative because her parents have NEVER said the word "NO" to her. She wants a toy? She gets it. She wants a candy? She gets it. She wants to play video games and not work on her reading? No problem. She wants money for no particular reason? Sure thing.

And so Katie is very sweet and agreeable... as long as you are agreeing with her. The moment anyone says 'NO' to her, or makes her do something unpleasant she has a meltdown. And her coping skills (because no one has ever made her work on them!) are about those that you would expect a 3 year old to have.

Her parents are not "bad" parents... they've just done her a MAJOR disservice. Katie would be perfectly capable of having a 'normal' life and holding down a job. She's very high-functioning. Will she ever do that? NO. Her parents have made sure that she's incapable of doing so... (And she doesn't really have to I guess, since her parents are rich.)

So, anyway, on to my story...

I was staying with Katie for a week while her parents were away on vacation. I was responsible for getting her to school, making sure homework was done, etc. Basically a "normal" week, only I would be the one in charge.

About half way through the week (and of waiting on Katie hand-and-foot, because that's what her parents do), I told Katie that after dinner she would have to help with the dishes. I gave her the option of either unloading the clean dishwasher or loading the dirty dishes. (Not exactly and arduous task.)

She ignored me, and so I unloaded the clean dishes and told her loading the dirty dishes were now her responsibility.

She kept ignoring me and returned to her video games.

I took the video games away and told her that she would get the video games back when she had finished this chore.

She had a MELTDOWN. I stayed calm throughout and kept telling her what her options were. It was getting late, so I added another one, and I told her she could also go straight up to bed.

What did she do? She ended up barricading herself inside the living room (there's a lock there for no particular reason) and calling her parents who were away on vacation to tell them what a horrible person I am and how I was mistreating her.)

If I was her parent, what would I have done? I would have told her to suck it up, listen to her babysitter, do the damn dishes, and go straight to bed.

What DID her parents ACTUALLY do? They called me and said, "You know Hypatia, we don't really ask Katie to do any chores. It only upsets her and causes problems. We don't want to stress her out, so just give her her games back."

Ummm... No. Not ok with that.

That was the last time I babysat for that family.

If I've been put in charge of a kid I need the parents to back me up when I discipline that kid otherwise my authority is totally SHOT. That kid will then know that they never have to listen to me and there's no point in me ever being "in charge" with that kid again.

So, yeah, those two incidents steam mean in particular. Would I have 'disciplined' those kids differently knowing what I know? Absolutely NOT.

I think, in those moments, it's perfectly ok to discipline someone else's kid.